Ryan
Welcome to afterthoughts. This is the podcast where we give you your thoughts after we have watched something. I'm your host tonight, Ryan King. And before we get into it, let's introduce our other Co hosts. We have our usuals, John Garcia.

John
Yeah, happy to be here, Ryan, talking about a movie that I think is the best horror film I've seen in a long time, really just existentially dreadful.

Ryan
Yeah, real crisis.

John
Yeah, but also a great call to action to learn ASL and or any sign language really.

Dixon
OK.

Ryan
Yeah. Or mental health. Like, it's a mental.

John
That's true. There's a lot of these things, yes.

Ryan
Health in order.

Ryan
Alright. And the other voice you hear, Michael Dixon.

Dixon
What's up? Yeah. Excited to to get into this movie.

Ryan
We are talking today about 2019's sound of metal.

Ryan
Not the sound of metal sound of.

John
Is The Sound of Metal a...

John
Different movie?

Ryan
No, but it's it's one of those, like the sound of metals, the remake they're gonna do in 2029.

Dixon

Dixon
Ohh yeah.

Ryan
It's is this an Amazon? I know it went around the circuits, but I think it's like an Amazon produced, right?

John
Studios production.

Ryan
Starring Riz Ahmed. This is the story of a metal drummer who loses his hearing. Or... I guess he has significant loss to.

Ryan
Maybe fully lost, and he.

Ryan
Is a previous addict. Immediately his girlfriend is concerned for what his mental health and stability is going to be with this sudden impact. He is not supposed to listen to loud things, which he immediately doesn't do. He immediately goes back to playing music loudly.

John
He doesn't listen to his.

Ryan
Yeah, does not listen to the doctor, and then most of the movie is him in a.

Ryan
Not a group home. It's not a good word for it, but saying with a group of other people who are deaf and and addicts who are working together to work on learning, on being deaf and staying off of substances, and we kind of see his progression through it.

Ryan
I will say I have ridiculously horrible tinnitus.

Ryan
I'm just going to start.

Ryan
Off and say that as a warning to anyone who wants to watch this, anything that has that tonight is sound like in a movie if video games, if I can turn it off, I will turn it off and it triggers me if I hear it somewhere else. So the beginning chunk of.

Ryan
This movie was a little bit rough.

Ryan
And I did listen to this with headphones, which I do recommend because I think that the sound is the key aspect of this movie, even though it's about being deaf. Most of this movie is, I think, good sound work like is what makes this movie.

Ryan
So yeah, a lot of it. And then even in the later part of the movie, like the way he's hearing things again, kind of like triggers me up. It can be like, debilitating to where I can be in a store and it's so loud I can't hear. And I have to like, stop and like.

Ryan
Kind of come back. So this is this was a little bit much for me at the beginning, but I'm not like I will say it was worth it. I did enjoy the movie. This is one that the reason I picked it as I've been wanting to see it for a long time. It's been on my short list of like things I should watch.

Ryan
Not as much metal music.
Dixon
That every time you watch something stupid on Netflix instead.

Ryan
Right. Yeah. And I did watch some stupid stuff this.
John
Always on a plane.

Ryan
Week as well.

Ryan
Just with my family.

Ryan
Instead of.

Ryan
Of my own accord.

Ryan
Yeah. So this is on that short list. I really like metal.

Ryan
Music this had.

Ryan
Some to do with metal music. It it was really the story of of Ruben, our main character going through his his loss and his trauma. I will say, yeah, this is a good example.

Ryan
Of addiction and deep mental health issues and trying to deal with those, that's really at the core of the movie and it really nailed that.

Dixon
Well, yeah, I like this movie a lot. It actually it released in theaters in the US in 2020. I think it maybe premiered at Toronto in 2019. IMDb is weird.

Dixon
Got dates like that but yeah it.
Ryan
Yeah, when it.

Dixon
It released in theaters in 2020. Like kind of toward the end of the year after theaters had reopened, and I went to see it there in a in a theater. And I I really enjoyed it and the sound design in a theater is ******* wild, like the sound design in this movie is so good. And also when they played in theaters, they every screening was subtitled, like regardless of.

Dixon
You know, they didn't have just, like, special screenings for the heart of hearing that were subtitled. Everyone of them was subtitled.

Dixon
Which I thought.

Dixon
Was kind of cool. They're like, they're trying to bring in deaf moviegoers to go experience.

Dixon
This movie it also went very quickly to Amazon Prime after theater, so, you know, got out there pretty quick for for people to go see. But yeah, I I really enjoyed this when it came out and I had a few reservations about it. I I I think I liked it a little bit better this time. I I still have some reservations that we can get into, but.

Dixon
Yeah, I think.

Dixon
Razmik and Olivia Cooke are both incredible in this movie and and Paul racy is also really good as the guy who runs the you know, the deaf community. And yeah, I mean, John, you mentioned that this kind of feels like a horror movie and it's it is kind of terrifying experiencing everything from Ruben's perspective as.

Dixon
He's losing his hearing and freaking the **** out and not knowing what to do about it. I I was like, my reservations are basically like I feel like the movie is a little unfair to its main character.

Dixon
I think it's kind of understandable what he's going through and how he's reacting to it and I feel like at every turn the movies like you're an addict, you need to stop, like trying to want to hear and that kind of bothered me, especially as like, he's a musician. Like, that's how he. That's what he loves to do. That's how he earns.

Dixon
His living like.

Dixon
You know it. It felt like a lot of, you know, kind of pushing back against him, trying to get back to his former life. Like, no, you just have to be OK with how things are.

Dixon
Accept it and like on on the one hand, I feel like that is that's a healthy attitude to some degree, but like it was possible for him to potentially return to where he was before. And I think he just gets shut down at every corner and it it was made feel like a frustrating watch for me the first time that I watched it, I still really liked it and appreciated.

Dixon
What it was doing, but it was a little frustrating to me. I think this time.

Dixon
Watching it, I I was a little more OK with that and kind of noticed some of Rubens's, you know, addictive tendencies and and kind of the the path that he was going down a little bit clearer on a second watch. But I still was a little bit, you know frustrated in how the movie I I don't know it treats its main character very fairly and what he is trying to do with his life.

Dixon
But it's it's an incredible movie that, you know, I I'm not deaf. I don't know what that sounds like to not be able to hear, but the way.

Dixon
That they go to the muffled sounds when they show you what Ruben is experiencing. It just sounds like that would be what it is. You know, it feels very realistic and what they're doing, the sound of the cochlear implant later in the movie and the the Medi metal tin tinny kind of sound like that that I've heard from people who've had those that that's what it sounds like.

Dixon
I just thought it was. It was really well done across the board, but yeah, I'll, I'll kick it to John.

John
Yeah, when this came out, I wanted to go see it, mostly because I saw some interviews about how it was done, like how the audio was done, where they basically used a variety of different microphones from different years to get almost like a like lenses like a cinematographer would use a lens. And I thought that was fascinating, that they were like, yeah, to get this particular sound, we're going to try to use this.

John
Style of capture instead of traditional techniques or like, you know, the single mic that they might try to use for any other production.

John
And and then do it in post. They're trying to actively do that. So that, yeah, the sound I picked up on immediately, like hearing everything, that that mix track has just done so well in the level of fully needed at any one point in time, how subtle it can be and other times how loud. And like in your face it is.

John
It's so jarring that it really makes you feel you have a good context of when you're observing and when you're actually in.

John
Things had and understanding kind of what that loss feels like. Sasha watched this with me and she has major anxiety when it comes to losing any part of her senses like she her ear got clogged for like 3 days with some and so she freaked out and thought she was going to be deaf in one year for like I don't know, a solid week.

John
And then the doctors are like, no, you just need to use this medicine and get it out. Like she was really kind of triggered by this movie.

John
Sitting there trying to think about that and I was like, well, you know, it's one of those things where, like, she's in that similar boat, I think.

John
That she resonated.

John
Really well with Ruben because she was like like how I understand exactly what he's going through. Like, how wouldn't you just bounce back from anything like this? And it's like, well, you know, you're used to that kind of use of your senses, but other people have never had that or they've already lost it, and they're there to guide you through what that could be.

John
And so I didn't feel it was too hard on Ruben. I just felt like.

John
There wasn't anybody at the the home that really guided him through that conclusion. Everybody gave him too much tough love and nobody really tried to sit down and and have a solid conversation of like, look change happens sometimes and like whatever you're wishing for might not be the thing like the cochlear implant sequence. I'm surprised that Doctor was never like, look, it's never going to be like 100%.

John
Give me 40 grand. They were like give me.
Ryan
Right, yeah.

John
40 grand up.

John
Front and afterwards you'll find out it's not what you thought it was.

John
So yeah, I yeah.

John
I also thought there might be a lot more metal music in it, Ryan. And so when like Olivia Cook and him were done with their first two performances, I was like, OK, I guess we're just done and it's just going to be the rest of the journey. But I had no problem with that. I was totally down to follow him to that rehabilitation center and that like charity group and.

John
It was really sweet seeing him start to.

John
On and I think that there was some tragic moments where I really thought this was going a different direction, like that he would probably give up on the cochlear stuff and and then like when it kind of bounces to a different thing of like, now he's still thinking this way and and about this thing I was like, well, that's unfortunate, but it is Rubens choice. At the end of the day.

John
And sort of like.

John
I'm glad in a way that it didn't end on the happiest note. I think that it it resonated a lot more, like when it ended, there was such a powerful swelling to to the finality before it got to the credits.

John
And I just love Olivia Cooke as well. Like Olivia Cooke. I've loved her since Thoroughbreds. I thought she was fantastic in that movie, and I've always wanted to see her more things. And I'm really sad. She's, like, ready Player one is, like, the only other.

John
Thing I remember her from right now.

John
But yeah, I I loved it. I I really enjoyed this movie. I think I know it won some Academy Awards and I think it it definitely deserves that and I'm probably gonna watch it again at some point. But I did. This is one of those where I need like a cool down for it. It's definitely pretty.

Ryan
Yeah, yeah.

Ryan
Yeah, definitely heavy. So I think what's interesting is there's a lot of different levels you could connect with Rubin, whether it is mental health, like depression, whether it is addiction or if it is dealing with trauma. All three of those need this stability.

Ryan
Other people's purpose, and then eventually acceptance of some kind like you do, have to accept the situation and really this is the movie of like, his journey is eventually accepting it. But for the most part, he's.

Ryan
In in that way of being an addict, he's has something that he's wants and he's giving up everything else for this thing, and it's really not exactly attainable in the way that, yeah, I agree it it's rough on him.

Ryan
But I do think.

Ryan
That it that that to a certain.

Ryan
Extent he can't go back.

Ryan
Because things are different, like and he has to accept that things did change, and while he could.

Ryan
I agree he can go back to being a musician. He could just be fully deaf and be a musician and make that work and it won't be quite the same. He get the implants and he go back and it won't quite be the same. Or he can go do something else. But he has to accept that like.

Ryan
That moment things changed, and now he is, you know, in this new state and this new situation. And it really isn't until the end of the movie where I think it starts to click for him of like.

Ryan
Things have moved forward. I'm a little bit different. Everyone's a little bit different and he actually like sits down and is in the moment finally, which is again another thing when you talk about dealing with addiction or mental health, like being able to be present that he hadn't been.

Ryan
So I think that's really interesting that you can.

Ryan
Come at this so many different ways, right? That you don't have to come into it being deaf. You can't come into this from any kind of situation. Probably. And it hits it you at some level.

John
I feel like, yeah, it's a good cautionary tale for anybody who struggles in a way like to, you know, let go sometimes just like, don't don't try to, like, grab onto.

John
What you had?

John
So tightly it can lead to you missing all the things in front of you that are, like really good about where you're at in life and what you're doing. It's like I've thought on a good number of times about, like if I go blind, like I won't be able to enjoy movies the same way, or if you know, deaf, I can't the same way. But I know that there are other ways to experience it. Like if go deaf.

John
You have noise units that hook up and vibrate. You can feel the sound through your body, and like while you're reading lips, you can feel the people talking. Basically in your body, which is an interesting sensory experience. And if you're blind, you have like audio descriptors, which somebody recently in my hyperreal community said that they accidentally watched Dungeons and Dragons with the descriptive reader on. And it was like having a narrator.

John
Do an audiobook and perform for you and I.

John
Was like that's.

John
Kind of rad.

John
Like, I don't know, there's just different.

John
Experiences you can focus on and yeah, obviously if you're blind, you can't talk about cinematography. If you're deaf, you can't necessarily talk about the Foley and how that's done, but other things to observe and like enjoy. So felt like the movie. Just like kept telling me that in a way that didn't feel like it beat me over the head with it. I was just like, OK, yeah, I'm. I'm in on this these little moments.

John
With the with Ruben and the kids that are in his class, just like so sweet, very like, I don't know, not overly saccharine. Did I do it right? Did I say it? Yeah, I did it. Everybody. It dropped the balloons.

Dixon
Yeah, you did you.

Dixon
Pronounce the word correctly.

Dixon
I think the thing this movie does best is.

Dixon
Just creating a feel of loneliness and isolation that is just so palpable and you know.

Dixon
You you feel how cut off Ruben feels from the rest of the world, right? Like he's losing his hearing, his girlfriend has left him. He is, is stuck in this community of nobody that he knows he can't communicate with any of them or understand what they're saying.

Dixon
And like it's just, it's such a visceral way that they they.

Dixon
Give you that feeling as as the viewer through the sound design and the cinematography, and and everything like that. And it's just like it's kind of depressing to watch because you feel that loneliness coming through the screen so much.

John
Does that alien?

John
Yet you get that same vibe of like, you know, new kid in a new town sort of thing. Like you're in a new class and you didn't make new friends and you just don't know how or you speak a different language entirely or something.

Ryan
Yeah, yeah.

Ryan
It there are really.

Ryan
Powerful scenes and the one that comes to my mind exactly. And that is when he first sits down at the dinner table at the home and everyone is signing and laughing and knocking on the table. And he's in the same way as someone who doesn't know sign language is looking around like I have no idea what's going on. I don't know what they're what they're talking.

Ryan
About I don't know.

Ryan
How to get in this or how I can learn? Because and then that's the beginning of this movie. I thought. How the hell is he gonna learn sign language when all they do is just sign in front of him and expect him?

Ryan
To kind of figure it out, and it isn't until eventually he goes to the school and we kind of sort of time lapse past most of his learning. But for a while there, at the beginning they just sort of continue their lives around him and he's just out of like, has no idea what's going on. And you as if you were, I do wonder if you knew.

Ryan
Sign language like how?

Ryan
This movie might differ because you would be in those, but at the same time you probably have been in that situation of being the odd one out that you're already comfortable with that and understand that without needing that the same way.

Dixon
Right.

Ryan
You know, maybe we we would need it.

John
Yeah, that's what I was. I was kind of thinking like, even if, you know, sign language in that moment, you're enjoying whatever conversations going on, but he sticks out like a sore thumb sitting in that seat alone and not knowing what to do that it would make you more cognizant of the people you might be leaving out of your conversations. And so I feel like.

Ryan
Right.

John
It had a good.
John
Dual duality to it and how you experienced that.

John
I mean, but it's just like it's immersive language. I mean that's that's what you do for like almost any other kind of learning. I know there's like what the pins are approach where you like sleep and listen to somebody's language or something you can't do.

John
That with sign.

John
Language probably. But just that moment of.

John
Like get you exactly.
Dixon
Let's see if the Clockwork Orange approach.

John
It's like instead it's like, no, let's immerse you at a table where you really can't understand anybody, but you just have to feel out the emotions of people you pick up on the more subconscious aspects of communicate.

John
And and then you eventually will pick up one word or another. Like that's kind of how my extended family is. And they all speak Russian around me, and I just kind of know I can pick up some things, but they'll never stop and explain it to me, and they won't really try. So it just picks up over.

John
Time. Yeah, he.

Dixon
And he also does have his phone either, right, like the guy running this place.

Dixon
He does not allow him to have a phone or a computer or anything. He has literally no way to contact the outside world or to know what's going on in in society as a whole.

Dixon
And he's just like, he's just stuck there, like he can't really do anything. He has to give up his car keys. Like he can't go anywhere. He can't learn any new information. He is just trapped inside his own head.

John
Yeah, there's those scenes of just him staring at somebody else where he can't sleep because he's just constantly thinking, oh, man, those are those are haunting images for me. I still.

John
He resumed. He did such a ******* great job conveying that dread without having to say anything without having to get up. Or do. I mean, he could be aggressive when he needed to. And you, you could tell he's ******* ****** ***.

John
At the situation, but other times it's just that quiet desperation of, like, please anything, just like, come back. I just want my.

John
Hearing back? Yeah, here's performance.

Dixon
And then like he was, he tries to fix the gutter at one point and the, you know, the Joe is like, no, you don't get to do that anything like you just have to sit with yourself and like, figure your **** out, you know.

Dixon
Like it's he can't do anything to distract him or or anything that maybe he enjoys doing right? Maybe he likes working with his hands and and wants to do that. No, not allowed.

Ryan
Yeah, he tells him he hears the notebook, you know, right when you feel like it.

Ryan
No drawings, right?

Ryan
Yeah. And I will say that that the movie doesn't.

Ryan
Actually give you.

Ryan
Anything about how to help, right? It doesn't necessarily go through like here's how to deal with addiction or these problems or trauma, like there is the, you know, the the one piece is that have you ever had any stillness that Joe is trying to get him to, like, sit down, be in the moment, like, just live the pain and the emotions and actually.

Ryan
Go through it, which he eventually does, and that's but it doesn't necessarily tell you like.

Ryan
Why or how is that going to help you or this movie isn't kind of there for that. It really is just to give you the experiences of this character and what he's going through. Which. Yeah, the performance. There's so much of this that's on his face. Like, there's a lot that's just his full face as he's.

Ryan
In a situation or reacting to something I think about when he first gets the implants and they're like adjusting him and he's realizing like, it's not gonna sound like things used to sound and you can just, you can see the breakdown in his face of like, this isn't going.

Ryan
To work like the.

Ryan
This isn't. This isn't what I wanted. Like you can just see the pain as he's like, coming to grips with.

Dixon
It yeah, the the scene that always sticks with me when I think about this movie is the scene where Lou leaves Rubin and and tells him, like you have to go back to this, this rehab place and.

Dixon
You know, like they they're talking to Joe earlier and you know, they're like, well, we'll just sleep in the RV and like, I can come in and do **** and go back. And he's like, no, you can't. If your girlfriend here, you gotta here be here by yourself and you know, so she is is kind of stuck with like, well, do I leave here with Ruben?

Dixon
And hope that he doesn't relapse. Or do I like just get out of here for his good and send him back there. And that scene is just so heartbreaking. And like, you know, clearly these two people really love each other and it's, you know, like, really hard for them to to part ways. And they're like breaking down and bawling in front of the Uber driver.

Dixon
And it's just like it's that that scene always sticks with me. I think Olivia Cooke is is really, really good in that scene.

Ryan
Yeah. Yeah. That's like, right after. He's like, how long have you been sober? And he's like, 4 years. And how long have you been with?

Ryan
Lou, four years.

John
Yeah, that scene and then.

John
The other scene blue, which is.

John
Are both. Yeah, that's the book ends basically of just like, OK, well, it's it's confirmation that this is definitely kind of over and there's a different chapter in his life going on right now.

John
Yeah. Olivia Cook just brings so much gravity, too. She's not in this for a really long time, but whatever she does in it is just fantastic. Like her concern when they're at the diner, when he starts losing his hearing, it's so visibly on her face that she's, like, calculating, trying to think about all these things and the whole time.

John
He's clearly like.

John
Flying off the handle.

John
Freaking out. Just like ohh. It's great. I just can't hear. Like I can't ******* hear anything and hit ranting and she's like just.

John
Let's get like your sponsor on the phone, let's try to talk and figure out what's going on. She's really trying to be his rock and at the same time.

Dixon
She's barely holding it together. She's also worried about herself because she's like, if you if you lose it, I'm gonna lose it. I'm gonna start cutting myself again. And like you know, there's unseen earlier where you see the scars on her arm and, you know, we learned that her mother has committed suicide.

Dixon
And she's been, you know, was in a really bad place when she met Ruben. And. And they've been leaning on each other to kind of survive the trauma that each of them had gone through. And then they have to part ways. And like Ruben doesn't know how to operate apart from her. Really.

Ryan
And the whole time that he's sitting there at that diner like, like, we'll, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. Like, he just wants to, like, we're just gonna keep on the tour. We got things to do.

Ryan
Like he wants to just act.

Ryan
As if it's not happening. Yeah, and her, you can really tell from her performance like that. She's like, no, no. Like, you've got to figure this out.

Ryan
I know that it's gonna be a problem, and then he snaps, like, later, right. She wakes up and he's just like, wrecking all the stuff in their RV because he just can't. He can't handle it like because he's not.

Ryan
Trying to get it right. He's still trying to move forward.

Ryan
Or trying to continue, not necessarily move.

Ryan
Forward trying to continue the way that they have been on the sound design, I started watching this little bit and I was like, no, I sit down and listen to this with headphones because I was like, I think that needs to be like full focus audio the way that it works. I watched it with captions because I watch everything with captions because it's.

Ryan
Can't quite hear as well. Anyway, during the movie and I'm.

Ryan
Starting to lose?
Ryan
It to and so yeah, I've just gotten used to having captions on and I watch things with subtitles all the time, so I'm just always sort of used to words at the bottom of the screen now. But yeah, I I feel like this needs to be either in.

Ryan
A theater or.

Ryan
With headphones, I feel like if it was just.

Ryan
On my TV.

Ryan
And this is absolutely also something you can't watch in the.

Ryan
Background. You can't just have it on because so much is happening in the in the emotions, or so much is happening of text or signing or whatever that you're going to miss out on that this movie really wants your full attention and.

Dixon
Yeah, yeah.

Ryan
The sound when he first gets those implants in the headphones, you can hear it like reverberate back and forth, kind of out of your like left, right side. And like all that I was like, oh, this must have been awesome in a theater. Like, I really agree. I would have appreciated hearing that.

Dixon
It was, yeah.

Dixon
Yeah, I watched it at home on my sound bar like.

Dixon
I have a.

Dixon
Mid tier sound bar and it sounded really good on that, but I bet headphones would be a pretty cool experience.

Ryan
I usually watch on my upstairs television, which just has the sound out of the television.

Ryan
So it's it's.

Dixon
Ohh yeah yeah.

Ryan
And and it's usually like 11:00 at night and I don't want to wake.

Ryan
The kids up and.

Ryan
It's like yeah, sound design out of that TV.

Ryan
Is a little.
Ryan
Questionable. Yeah, yeah.

John
Yeah. One of those things where like I when I was listening to it.

John
I was leaning in so like there's plenty of.

John
Other movies that have.

John
I would say that they generate this response for me via tension, you know, like I'm waiting. You know, I'm watching jaws coming at music is playing. I'm leaning forward, see. And I'm just. I'm just trying to like lean forward and or it's really quiet. You hear the waters and you're listening for something. This has that same result where, like I found myself sitting upright or leaning forward and trying to listen.

Dixon
Dada. Dada, Dada.

John
Like even the smallest something that was like when he's taking his hearing test, I was taking the hearing test too.

John
Saying like, I don't know. Yeah. And just every step of the way, it really drew me into that reaction. It drew me so naturally into listening for the same cues. Ruben is listening for, even during the scenes where there's no audio. It's just pure silence. And he's trying to study.

John
Other people like my sense, is perked.

John
Up and I was trying to actively gauge the exact same way he was like I thought when they were trying to sign the alphabet and like race in the middle.

John
Of that class, I think that's.

John
Happening I'm not entirely sure, but like all of my senses, I could feel my dilating and like it was just this natural response to try to absorb the whole movie through those senses. It was wild, but yeah, like I don't have that that often with anything that isn't.

John
Like a horror movie or a thriller where they're like, did you hear that? And then you you have a queue to listen, but this whole.

John
Movie you're.

John
What was that? No.

Dixon
This is actually the second movie in a row that we've watched that had one of those hearing tests.

Ryan
Yeah, the same hearing test.

John
This one has done way better.

Ryan
Ruben's really ahead of his time. He just experiences things differently.

John
I'm very curious if you all have any thoughts. Did this teach you anything? Additionally, about like the deaf community, did this provide you any kind of inlay for how you understand? Because like a long time ago I dated somebody who knew ASL had spoken to many deaf people and at the time I was trying to be politically correct and say.

John
Like what was it like the hearing impaired, which apparently is no, no, that's a big thing that you do for deaf people because it's not that kind of they they prefer being.

John
So yeah, like towards the end, kind of Ruben's whole exchange about the choice he's made with the cochlear implants. I was like, oh, I'm getting. I'm getting, like, vibes back to my memory of.

John
Being told that.

John
But were there certain parts of this that educated either of y'all or are you already?

John
Kind of up to.

Ryan
I mean the I walk away again wishing I know ASL. I know you mentioned John that that you know, you picked up a few things there. A few things. Yeah, that and what I find difficult is the opportunity to actually learn that.

Ryan
Because like I'm, I'm learning Japanese right now and I'm using Duolingo and I have workbooks that are the workbooks they use, like for elementary students in Japan, which is really.

Ryan
The same thing that he goes through here, where you feel really like put down when you're around a bunch of children trying to learn something that that they're picking up on faster than you, but you can't really. It's not the same with ASL. There. I found one app that was OK, but it ended up being like a little too expensive for me to do.

Ryan
To like feel OK with what the app did, but it's like I can't really exactly get a book.

Ryan
Right. And and learn that and there's the opportunities to practice with someone I don't have unless I get someone else to learn with me just because of, you know, the current situation. So it's that's one of those things where like, that there needs to be that opportunity more because it does feel like.

Ryan
It it should be more available, more people should know and I think this movie was really wanting to drive that point home.

Ryan
But it just sucks that it's not. It's still not that easy to get into.

John
It it also has to do it on the cusp of a pandemic where nobody could. I mean, I guess you can do video calls, but it's even farther to this level, like an in person community that could support you during the pandemic when.

Ryan
Video, yeah.

John
You're in lockdown. It's just like.

Ryan
The I had a former coworker who is deaf and the pandemic was a real struggle. If we didn't use an application that had like auto transcription, that's that just makes it more difficult and then.

Ryan
Not everyone thinks about that, and, you know, starts things and doesn't turn on the transcription and right. So this is also just that where like moving to fully remote also added some difficulty for people that not everyone realizes either.

John
I forget that Dixon's color blend like weekly. So like I I just, yeah, I've got to get it into a habitual system to remember that, you know, other folks out there don't have the same census I do don't have the same experience as I do.

John
Like accommodate it and this movie is again, it doesn't hit you over the head with it. It just is and it.

John
It makes me want to be a.

John
Better person, I guess.

Dixon
OK.
John
The main thing like I want to.

John
Do more so yeah.

John
Inspiring. And how bleak it can be at times.

Dixon
Yeah, it's interesting to to answer your question, John, I think.

Dixon
Yeah, I mean I I I did learn that about the deaf community in this movie that, you know, they don't, you know, appreciate being categorized as disabled or or anything like that. And I think that's like, that's cool. And I I can appreciate what they're trying to do. And and that, you know, foster a, you know, a sense of, you know, lacking.

Dixon
Self pity and actually like you know, thinking that you can do all the stuff that everybody else can like, that's that's great. And I'm I think like that mentality is probably necessary when you have, you know, a medical condition that you know limits your, you know, senses compared to to other people. I did though feel like.

Dixon
The IT was almost a hostility toward Ruben for wanting to hear, you know, and it's like, like, man, can you give the kind of break like he's a musician. Like, I get it that like, you don't you don't want him around if he's gonna be you know trying to not be deaf anymore. Understand. But like it just felt it felt.

Dixon
A little harsh to me.

John
There is a branching path I saw. I'm curious if you all noticed it too, but like one thing that's never mentioned in this and it would probably be in like you know based on a true story Disney movie, if somebody would be like, well, you know.

John
Right. Yeah. Like that would just be a line that they would throw at somebody.

Dixon
Everybody's as talented as Beethoven.

Dixon
Nobody needs ears to do music.

John
Exactly. But there's that moment on the slide when Ruben is, like, kind of knocking on it with the other.

John
That's like struggling to do whatever and that's that moment where he's experiencing the thing he loves, but in a different lens, like the different.

Dixon
True, yeah.

John
And that's I think the pivot like I remember during one of the recent like some recent months where we were like Apple was celebrating differently abled people and they released the playlist that was curated by Deaf People only. And I listened to part of that playlist and it's like some of that music, it's not for me because and surprisingly.

Dixon
A lot of heavy bass.

John
Not not heavy bass. There's some stuff that is heavy bass and other stuff that plays a little bit with like, the way the treble is.

Dixon
Oh, interesting.

John
And like I could feel the difference. And I definitely knew that there was something there, but it couldn't be. It's not something you can play on headphones. You have to play it on, like louder speakers and.

Dixon
Right, yeah.

John
And those were those moments where I.

John
Was like, oh, this is a totally different way to experience, you know, music that's like going up to the speakers and in the theater and feeling them for, like, how they would move. And I I just was like, I've never thought about it that way. And it's one of those things where, like, everybody's heard on Ruben because I feel like there's a certain degree of.

John
Maybe jadedness that's been in the the the community that's in that's represented.

John
Where they're like.

John
You know, just get over it. I. There's a a phenomenon. When you become an expert or you become accustomed to a certain way of life.

John
That sometimes you forget about the gradual steps it took to get there, and I think that that's what the movie shows is like. I felt like it was and representative of both sides of of an argument in a way, it was like, really harsh on Reuben's part.

John
Also, those people are harsh for a reason. You can kind of take away from that like where they pushed him away potentially and like maybe learn from from that period, at least that's.

John
How I feel about?

Ryan
Yeah, it doesn't really present the nuances of the community because you have people who were born deaf or very, you know, very quickly at a young age. They mentioned the like autoimmune disorder, which is what the character had in the Congress, where you can lose hearing.

Ryan
Really early on or someone who, through traumatic incidents like.

Ryan
Ruined listening to metal music for too long, I guess I don't exactly say that that's what caused it or Joe in Vietnam. And then there's just gradual. You know, you just lose it sometimes as you get older as well. And so everyone's kind of coming from a different angle of, like, how much of their life they were hearing.

Ryan
And what the circumstances were that led to it, which sometimes impacts what treatment you could or couldn't have as well.

Ryan
And so yeah, I can, like everyone does kind of have a different opinion of that situation then we're really only kind of here, Joe, and how he runs his House of like, in, in what he wants, what he's going through. He is like we're deaf now. That's who we are. That's how we act and someone that's trying to not be that is counterproductive to all of these people who are coming in and needing to accept.

Ryan
This new world, I agree that may be presenting something else to say. Like. Yeah, I mean, there are. Here's all these people that have gotten implants now that they're available, you know, for whatever reasons. And you could see maybe the difference.

John
Yeah, are having like the the teacher that Reuben started bonding with be in the room when Joe's giving that talk and kind of having her be like oh, you know, we don't need to be that extreme about it. He's like my house, my rules kind of thing that could create where you can see that there's more than one perspective doesn't have to be you know, two only monolithic kind of thing but.

John
Yeah, I would have added another dimension.

John
You know, here's a different level of exception. There is like a spectrum of people to understand.

Dixon
I'm curious to hear you guys thoughts on. I want to get more into Ruben and and kind of why I I feel like he's he's maybe not treated super fairly. He's like at the beginning of the movie. He seems like he's in a really good place. Right. Like he's that scene where he is like waking up early and making breakfast for Lou and yeah working out like he seems like he's in a really good place. He seems very happy with where.

Ryan
Working out.

Dixon
His life is and then you know, obviously he starts to lose his hearing. Obviously he's. He's freaking out, understand.

Dixon
So, but you know, and then there's the parallel that's drawn, like you mentioned earlier, Ryan, between his addiction and Lou like, oh, really, you've been sober for four years and you've been with Lou for.

Dixon
Four years and I feel like.

Dixon
Like, we don't really have a cure for addiction in society, right? Like the point of the 12 steps is to get you addicted to the 12 steps, so you're not addicted to.

Dixon
The thing that you used to be addicted to, right? And so like he had found a life that worked really well for him.

Dixon
Like you know, maybe he was. Maybe he was addicted to that. But it was like working for him, and it was it was healthy. And like Joe has found a life that works really well for him. Like he likes being cut off from society. He likes being in a still quiet place where not a lot is going on and he can live in a community of people who have the exact same life experience and goals.

Dixon
As he does and and.

Dixon
Rubin is like he's trying to get back to that life that he had where he was in a good place, right where everything was working. Like when he was with Lou and he was in in the band with her. And he's like, that's the only part of his life that he has known that has been healthy and good. Right. And like, understandably, he's trying to get that back and.

Dixon
And pursue it and he just gets told. No. Like at every turn across the board, whether it's by Joe.

Dixon
Or by Lulu or or kind of whoever it is, it's like, you know well, you know, yeah, maybe this worked.

Dixon
For you, but you can't. Like you can't have this anymore and you need to figure out how to have, like, like Joe's. Like you need to figure out how to have my specific life and heading to like that, right?

Dixon
And it's like, can't, can't he?

Dixon
Can't ribbon figure out what he wants to do with his own life and?

Dixon
Find peace in that rather than trying to do what everyone is telling him to do, you know.

Ryan
Yeah, I I think.

Ryan
That's where I see the parallels with mental health as well. Or just a general trauma that it's.

Ryan
And the the movie is trying to get across Rubin getting to that point of acceptance and presence and stillness. And he gets at the end with the idea being like he can't go back to exactly the situation he was in just because something happened and you're now.

Ryan
In this new situation, in this new world, and getting to that point of like, OK, I am in this new world and I can be happy and I can do things and maybe it's not exactly the same, but like I'll reform this new life and find this, you know, whatever the new purpose is even.

Ryan
If it's pretty much.

Ryan
The old purpose, but slightly tweaked.

Dixon
Sure. Yeah.

Ryan
Like is an option and I think it's that he's so at the beginning of the movie kind of against.

Ryan
The whole thing, like he is deaf, that anything should change that he can just keep playing like he just wants it to be exactly what it was because it was so good and it was kind of the only good time right in his life. He's had four.

Dixon
Right.

Ryan
Years of his.

Ryan
Whole life that it's kind of figured out and we can't, you know, we don't know, but we could probably.

Ryan
Assume that like.

Ryan
The first year wasn't.

Ryan
As great as this last year, right, it's probably gotten good, but it probably took some work there too. And yeah, does it to hit that level of like absolute frustration of like, **** this doesn't fit into my thing. That's good now. And he I was going to say one thing that really hit for me is when he says, like, I'm having a bad day.

Ryan
Right when they ask. Like are you?

Ryan
Thinking about doing drugs again and he's like I'm having a bad day and like my like, little voice in the back of my.

Ryan
Head was like.

Ryan
Having a bad day so far like.

Ryan
There was.
Ryan
Like you know of.

Ryan
Like you gotta challenge your thinking on those kind of things. It isn't black and white like you can, right? And I and I was like that kind of clicked as well, where I'm like, he's not quite gotten to the healthy level in these last four years of understanding like.

Ryan
You were an addict, right? And some of what the steps try to get, but like you are an addict and say we're an addict, but you you are an addict now you are deaf like you are in this situation. Now work through it, work with it like be in it. And that's where I think the movie doesn't spend any time, really.

Ryan
Telling him or us that.

John
There's all these moments in it, and we talked about it a little bit before where he misses.

John
Like everything is painted in broad lights for me, you know, it is that I'm having a bad day so far. Moment just constantly repeating. We're like, look, OK, Lou left and went to Paris. He like goes and finds out that she's performing in Paris and he's really ******* upset about that because he thought she maybe would stay state side and he'd be able to see her again.

John
Easier or something like that gets like 1 e-mail from her but.

John
At the same time, like Sasha and I noted, so many of these moments where, like, OK, you're now part of this new community, you're completely isolated. And yeah, you feel isolation, and he's pining so much for, like, the life he had that he misses at every turn, all these little moments of things that are part of the life he has now. We're like, he's playing with the kid on the slide, and they're connecting.

John
Over the sound over like the vibrations of music on just like a metal pan.

John
And he's in this class with all these kids. But there's a teacher who is roughly his age, who looks very charmed by him or is very friendly and could either be a friend or a romantic interest, like, depending upon how the conversations go. And even if not a romantic interest like could turn him into, you know, part of another group of friends that lead him to that he's drawing tattoos for one of his house.

John
Hates who ******* loves those tattoos and instead of like trying to forge that friendship and actually build something there that leads to something else he's like, hey, can you sell my **** for me so that I can get back to the life I had like that?

John
Is just all of these missed opportunities to be in the moment be in that new acceptance phase and be like you know what, this isn't so bad. Like I could get used to a lot of this. He's surrounded by ******* *** **** greenery like everywhere. It's just so gorgeous where he is, even if it seems plain or like a countryside painting. It's just the stillness.

John
That he needs and he fights it like every step of the way. And so part of me is like, I understand why everybody who's there is like hard on him. And it seems like they are aggressive in a way of like just get over it, but also like.

John
The actual surroundings and environment he has are reaching out to him at every step and he can't see it because he's so like lockjaw, like grabbed on to what he had that normalcy he craves that normalcy. He's addicted to normalcy and it it's it's just, yeah. Really tragic and sad.

Dixon
Yeah, I think he does seem to enjoy those moments and to be in them.

Dixon
But he then he doesn't view them as a, you know, he doesn't view a future there, right. He doesn't think that he can turn those moments into something longer and more meaningful. You know, they're a way for him to survive while he's there. Those moments, making friends with, with people around him.

John
As as bleak as the movie kind of ends with?

John
Him sort of isolated in Europe instead of in America, like Sasha and I were still like the.

John
But like.

John
Oh well, he he could eventually go back to that community even if he was kicked out for his decision by Joe, I could easily see Joe taking him back and him shepherding other people who have the same journey of wanting cochlear implants or wanting this. And like now, he's become like even more wise, potentially to to say something about it, but.

Dixon
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dixon
I feel like Joe would only let him back if he was like you can have like you have to give me your your like attachments to.

Dixon
The implants you can never use them.
John
Yeah, yeah, I don't know if he wants to use them after that. That scene, which we haven't talked about. Yeah.

Dixon
Yeah, but the ending scene as a as a as a gut punch I also get before we get to that. I think it's worth talking about.

Dixon
Reuben and loose relationship and what happens when he does go to Paris to meet up with her after he's able to, you know, he's able to sell his RV, get the implants. And I I'm very curious as to what their relationship looks like because, you know, she sends him one e-mail and he's able to like, sneak into Joe's office and check his e-mail and see that.

Dixon
Presented but then there seems to be no communication between the two of them over that whole time. Like when when Lou leaves Ruben, it's like you gotta send me letters so we can stay in contact and she doesn't ever send him any, you know, physical letters.

Dixon
And Reuben doesn't really try to stay in contact there. Obviously it's difficult for him without having access, you know, regular access to the Internet aside from when he can sneak into Joe's office, but there seems.

Ryan
They never asked Joe if he could use the mail. Like maybe that one's.

Dixon
To be no.

Dixon
Right. Yeah. There was no conversation around that and it does feel weird where it's like, you know, Luna has clearly drifted apart from him when he meets up with her again. She's kind of like, oh, you're here. Interesting. And she still clearly cares about him, but doesn't view him in the same way and has established a life in Paris.

Dixon
That she is happy with and and seems to be wanting to pursue.

Dixon
That more but.

Dixon
I'm interested because they seem to care about each other so much in the beginning of the movie, and then there seems to be just like a hard break with no communication and he he seems to expect to just show up at her dad's house and just be welcomed back immediately, even though there hasn't been communication going on over that whole time.

Ryan
Yeah, I think seemingly they both never built up good social.

Ryan
Like what do you call it? Like social rapport? Like with anyone, right. They've they kind of had rough lives. You know, we don't exactly know everything about Rubens, but I think he also had a rough life. There's a mention of moving around a bunch and his dad not being there. And obviously then he was addicted to heroin.

Ryan
But they kind of got each other, you know, propped each other up, probably didn't have good relationships before that, didn't have good, familiar or relationships either. And then they're apart. I think it's the same thing that sometimes, you know, you have a friend that you're like really great with. And then they move.

Ryan
Move or change jobs or something and it's just like you just never talk again. And every time you talk, you're like, hey, we should catch up and then you just don't and.

Dixon
Right, yeah.

Ryan
It like keeps.

Ryan
Going on like that or relationships that become long distance or long distance relationships that become in person relationships that then it like doesn't work the same because you just that's not what it was.

Ryan
And then it kind of strains because now it's a little bit different and yeah, like.

Ryan
I I I've.

Ryan
Been in long term relationships, Darla and I, I've worked in a different town and came back on the weekends and every day was gone for.

Ryan
The whole week.

Ryan
For maybe a year and a half of our relationship over various points and it's different, it's a much, much different relationship than being a person and and and you have to work on it more like relationships are work and I think it's something that not everybody realizes either, right? Like it isn't just like oh, it goes great, it's work. And when you're a distance.

Ryan
It's even more work and I just don't think they.

Ryan
Ever learned?

Ryan
How to do that? Or how to?

Ryan
Be that and that it just falls apart kind.

Dixon
Yeah. And they were spending every waking moment together, like driving around the country in an RV, just going from show to show and and just living as you know, traveling musicians.

Ryan
Right.

John
I think that part of that.

John
Too is it's working on the gutters, right? It's doing something where they both came from, different vices or different outlets of their anguish. And they found each.

John
Other and there was some spark of attraction, but they latched on to it and they turned to it as their resource. And so it's one of those things where, like I've, I've been through that I had a relationship in college. It was very similar where my girlfriend long-term broke up with me or said we were on a break for six months, like, not.

John
Even like 3 break.

John
Break for three months. Sorry, I'm not.

John
Fully. That kind of idiot.

John
Where I was.

John
Just like, OK, that makes sense.

Dixon
We're gonna take.

Dixon
We'll come.
Dixon
A couple of.
Dixon
Years off.
Dixon
Back. Yeah. Yeah, we'll be back after.

Dixon
Who knows how?

John
But it's like over a summer or something. And then she's like, I just need to think. And that was because she wasn't confrontational and she couldn't really tell me that she really wanted to just break up with me. Yeah. And then when we got back together, which happened, it was like a month of just, you're not the person that I remember you being. And you're not the person that did these things and like.

John
It just didn't work out.

John
And I slowly had that realization where I was like, oh, oh, they wanted something different. And I think that for Lou, that was the case where Lou kind of saw this was going to be something that changed their complete dynamic. It's like, I feel like Lou was in love with the music and the expression that she needed to to have.

John
On stage, like the way she screams into that mic in the first song, I can just tell she has like a lot of things she's working out in her vocals and in her lyrics, and Olivia could do such a good job selling that as like, this is what I need as a singer. This is what I do in the moment that you know.

John
Ruben is not able to keep up with the drums and do the exact same expression that's supposed to fuel her. She's like, what's wrong? What's wrong? And there's a part of me that's cynical that says when they're sitting in that diner, she's like, this is just never gonna work for me.

John
Me and I and it, there's no way to fault somebody for that because it's a it's a bidirectional St. like some people are like, I can't take care of my significant other if they actually do get sick, like really sick. I just don't know what to do with them like, because I've never thought that would happen. And I feel like lose that same kind of situation where she drops him off with that thing.

John
She's like you need to do this for your own good. Part of her is very genuine and the other part of her.

John
It's like I want to go and I still have things I have to work through. I still things that I need to do. And so when he finds her and she's like, oh, hey, you're here. It broke my heart because I recognized it. I was like, yeah, that's not going to be the same. None of this is going to be the same. And they have that whole moment where he, like goodwill, hunting her, but he's just like, it's not.

John
The fault. Until she's like, what are you?

Dixon
Why are you?

John
Saying that, yeah, but in the same way.
Dixon
He said it's it's OK and yeah, it's such a heartbreaking scene.

Dixon
Because she does. I don't know if she realizes that the relationship is over, but he does because she doesn't have that same desire and spark that she did before, and then he can tell that she has moved on and needs to do other things. And like, I think that shows like a lot of maturity from him, where, like, I wouldn't have expected that.

Dixon
To come out of his mouth for most of the movie and.

Dixon
You know, just the her, her realizing that it's over as he's saying it's OK is just so it it both of them are so good. But it's just it's just an incredible scene and she's like you know what do you what do you mean? It's OK. It's like it's OK you saved my life so it's OK like you can leave me now and do anything you don't owe me anything like.

John
Yeah, yeah.

Dixon
You've given me everything that you can.

John
It it's it's sometimes you have those moments as a human where somebody says something to you and subconsciously you understand it. But on the surface, you're like, I don't understand you. I I don't know what that is and it hits.

John
Hard and yeah, Olivia Cook just does such a phenomenal job showing trying to process that and trying to understand it. And yeah, God, it's it's brutal.

Ryan
Well, I think that four years that they were together, they got, you know, got things together, got life in order, but they never really got OK with themselves right in their core, which is important. And then she's been getting more comfortable with that. She even talks about this.

Ryan
Like relationship, she's now rebuilding with her father.

Ryan
And things that she had kind of forgotten about being younger that she now realizes she misses and like. So she's been working on.

Ryan
Loving Lou and at the same time Ruben is starting to get something OK for himself, separate from Lou as well. And that, yeah, this kind of hits that I talked a while back about watching the stunts documentary, the one that Jonah Hill did.

Ryan
One of stunts is like things. That is one of his main tenets, and this is the one that's like still stuck in my mind, and I still grip with and I can't. I can't wrap my head around it for myself. But he says, like, if you want something, if you want to go after something, you have to be OK with not getting it.

Ryan
With like letting it go and like whatever it is that you need, you think you need what's important to you, even if it's a person, whatever. Like know that.

Ryan
It might not work. It might not happen and you have to be OK with that situation before you go after it. And I'm like, I think that Ruben didn't get that to begin with, but it clicks later, like kind of like, OK, I need to let this go, like and now.

Ryan
Yeah, I do think at the end. Yeah, it's sort of like that relationship ends and it's hard, but when he sits down and at the very end is just.

Ryan
Him. He's moving on. He walks out. He he's alone in France. He sits down, looks around. He takes off the implants. Everything gets silent and he just looks around and, like, looks at kids, looks at the bell tower, looks at the street, just looks around.

Ryan
I was like, I actually think that that's.

Ryan
Somewhat uplifting because it's kind of the first time he sits down and.

Ryan
Is like OK.

Ryan
Like I'm here and these things are happening and it I kind of feel like the movie he can get up after the movie ends and go do whatever.

Ryan
Right. Like now he's sort of free to.

Ryan
Be who he is and move forward and get things and be Reuben. Like not have to be. Ruben and Lu like he can just be Ruben. He can get things. He could go back. Yeah. And maybe he maybe Joe won't let him in the house anymore, but he get his own RV and he can work at the school. Or maybe he does work back on the relationship with you or he starts his own music or like, everything is now.

Ryan
Open to him in a way that and he can now accept that and do those things and actually be there.

John
Yeah, I I actually one thing that I thought about in this movie ended and Shocker for folks out there maybe was Birdman. Birdman is about a man grasping for something so hard that it drives him to suicide, that it drives him to self destruction and.

Ryan
Hmm yeah.

John
Reuben's end of the journey is acceptance, and finding that stillness or his Birdman is.

John
Is not it? It's it's realizing they're both approach nihilism at a rapid rate and one of them caves and one of them doesn't and instead embraces it. And when this movie ended, I had the same like flashes of Michael Keaton on stage being like.

John
I don't exist, I just don't exist and putting a.

John
Into his head and then jumping out of a window after like kind of thing when he he fails to do that comically. But yeah, like that, that is sort of what I thought about with this is those moments that really challenge you to change, to embrace and to let go of what you were expecting like expectation is a toxicity and a poison and.

John
I have felt it sting many times when I was young and many times when I'm older, but I've gotten better and better about letting go when I get really fixated on something and just understanding that you know what it wasn't meant to be, I can't.

John
Do this like.

John
It'll destroy me if I grip to it tight.

John
Yeah, I I agree, Ryan. Like it is that is the hardest.

John
Thing that that Rubin really struggles with and it was beautiful to see him embrace it at the end. And it's it's bittersweet, but it's also progress for him. I was.

Ryan
Happy. Yeah. Plus the fact that he doesn't like, explode like he just kind of gets to that realization is.

Ryan
Like, OK, it's OK.

Dixon
Yeah. Yeah, what?
John
Do you think he would like explode and kick?

Ryan
It's. Yeah, like the old.

John
The bench and be like.

John
**** like the kids nearby are like ohh ****.

Ryan
Have lost it?

John
He breaks that kids skateboard.

Dixon
In half.
Dixon
Yeah. Yeah. And the moment when he takes the implants off and the silence hits, it hits hard. And it's like a really powerful moment to where, like, you. If the silence is loud. Right. Like, I don't even know if Rubin does accept his position, but.

Dixon
He seems willing to try to, you know, and to like, at least think about it.

Dixon
He looks really depressed in that last shot of the movie. I don't. I don't know that he's at peace. Really. He doesn't seem to be like, OK, with where things are, things are not have not gone the way he wanted them to. But he seems like he's in a much better place and he is like willing to try to find peace in the silence.

Dixon
Yeah, I think that's a a pretty powerful way to end the film. And you know, there is the the possibility for Ruben from there, but that's also kind of a terrifying thing too, right? Where, like, he doesn't know what he's going to do with himself and he's got to figure his **** out. And he has to do it, you know, on his own at least.

Dixon
At least in the very near term, without Liu, you know, maybe he can go back and rekindle some of those old relationships in that community. But yeah, it's a pretty, you know, pretty powerful way in the film, I think.

John
With the context of him telling Lou that it's OK, I saw.

John
It's like it's acceptance. It's not like gleeful acceptance or, you know, any kind of embrace, truly. But it is much more of, like, a well. This is where I am now. And and he was no longer like in strife, trying to fight it. Yeah. This entire movie was him being beaten down bit by bit into that moment of submission.

John
Or he had to accept he either accepted the stillness, or, like I said, with Birdman, like you just cave and crumble. Yeah, yeah.

Ryan
Yeah. Acceptance doesn't mean no pain.

Ryan
Yeah. Or least necessarily. Yeah. I and I do think at the end, like, I see it as as him being present.

Dixon
Sure. Yes.

Ryan
Not necessarily. Yeah, that he's like, at peace or things are good now and he's got a great and it's just more like he's at least now there in the moment aware of things. Yeah.

John
He's legitimately considering that other path, yeah.

Ryan
Yeah. Which, you know, you talked about the the.

Ryan
The being at the home and the interactions he has with all the other people, he never even I think, seems to recognize like everyone else is going through what he's going through, right, or they wouldn't be there, right? These kids are.

Ryan
Growing up deaf and having to figure it out in this world, the other people that are there are former addicts that for you know some reason or other. Maybe also recently became deaf, you know, like he doesn't.

Ryan
Appear to spend time to learn that, or at least we as an audience don't get that. But he should be making those connections and seeing like, OK, well, I can help some of the people with.

Ryan
The things that.

Ryan
I have you know that I know or.

Ryan
That I've learned.

Ryan
That instead of just, he's so laser focused on like I get back to Lou, heading back to what I you know before he.

Ryan
Doesn't see that in front of him.

Ryan
Ohh I gotta see the end of the movie. Do we have it in? Yeah. Any. Any other thoughts? Any other?

Dixon
One other thing is like this movie shot really well? It's not, you know, like a super showy cinematography.

Dixon
But it's just.

Dixon
Every every shot really helps to further what the narrative is is doing, and it's also shot on film, which is pretty cool. Like you don't see that very often with with new movies anymore.

John
Yeah, I don't. I don't have anything else for the movie in particular. Of course, it made me think a lot more about accessibility options and what is out there for people, and I just want to say it's *******.

John
******** that our podcast.

John
Just can't have a transcript without us having to pay up a **** ton of money to get some AI to read it and actually transcribe that out. Like I don't have the time to transcribe it and I really wish I could.

Dixon
I was just gonna say John's gonna take this podcast out.

John
I would absolutely.
Ryan
Put it on the Internet.

John
Love to, but yeah, it's just one of those things where I'm like, why is that gated for a subsection of the community who they they just can't engage with us? Like, I don't know it it ******* sucks so.

Ryan
Which it's crazy to think of.

Ryan
And maybe you guys don't remember this. This is one of me being old when like voice transcription for computers like first came out.

Ryan
How ******* horrible it was. Yeah. And, like, barely. It barely worked. And it, you know, barely. And it took a decent amount of computing power to like to work for it, even though they were like shouting at something. And now I'm like now.

Ryan
The ******* tiny box in my room understands me too well, even when I'm not talking to it. Yeah, yeah.

Ryan
What if you like this?
Dixon
Alexa knows your deepest thoughts. Ryan's most shameful desires.

Ryan
Yes. Yeah. This morning my kids were asked hers. Yeah, my my kids were asking this morning like, what the weather was. And our Google Home was. Hub was like, Ohh, just so you know, going forward, you don't have to say, hey, Google in front of that anymore, you can just say what's the weather and.

Ryan
I was like, no, I don't need to.

Ryan
Know the. Let me say that without me saying your.

Dixon
Yeah, you're always listening to it, yes.

Ryan
Name first.

John
Exactly it it's it's ******** too, because I can go into my app and see that all of my.

Dixon
That's horrifying.

John
Voice commands are transcribed, but when I want to go and do this for this podcast, which I've looked up several times, it's always like, yeah, it's gonna be like, you know, a $3 for every minute. If you want this to be transcribed this way. And I'm like, but the software is out there where I could just have my computer do the work. Why the **** am I uploading it to the cloud? And it just it's such a barrier for.

John
A A community. And I'm just so ******* mad about it all the time. It's ********.

John
But yeah, if anybody out there knows of the transcribing software that doesn't require this kind of payment, send it our way. I I believe it's John at afterthoughts dot media. I am happy to look into anything that would help us get this out to to more people and and be more inclusive and champion that kind of accessibility. It's it's important but.

John
Thank you. Sound of metal, not the sound of metal.

Ryan
But not the sound of.
John
Sound of medicine for making.

John
Me think about this again and giving me a.

John
Platform to talk about it. Yeah, I was thinking.

Dixon
If there's one thing the deaf community needs, it's our opinions on movies for sure.

John
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well.

John
Honestly, they need our opinions so that they can give us their opinions. We can learn and grow. Yes, we are. We are three ignorant men. In some ways we we need to be educated. Please. So yeah, that's that's my take away, Ryan.

Dixon
Yeah, you can actually get.

Ryan
Nice. Alright, well, this close, I absolutely recommend it.

Ryan
I knew I was gonna like this movie, like going into it. This is one that's been on my list that I sang got around.

Ryan
And yeah, well, it didn't have the metal that I wanted of mice and men just doesn't have as many mice in it as you could want. I did. I did really enjoy, like what the movie was. And like, Rubens's story, the, you know, connection that I had with him. And I think kind of anybody would have, you know, it's something that they can see through this.

Ryan
Character and through what he goes through. So yeah, totally recommend it with headphones. Or if you if you if you have a ****** TV audio.

John
Yeah, I obviously I would recommend this movie. I loved it. I think every word in this episode is just me pouring over different aspects of what I loved about it. I there is actually one last topic that I'm very curious about. This compared to coda because Coda came out and coda seems like Oscar bait.

John
Inclusivity stuff for me. Don't get me wrong, I like to have multiple movies about the deaf community having deaf people in them. But just every trailer I saw of COTA and Dixon, you saw it. I never did. Seemed like that. Kind of like.

John
We're doing this story you're used to, but we're doing it with some deaf people involved and it felt way more exploitative than sound of metal, which is about somebody going through personal struggles and getting into the deaf community and trying to understand that breach there. So I wanted to get kind of.

John
Your take on.

John
How you feel this stacks up, or if coda?

John
Feels a little bit hollow or you said it was good and yeah, well, that's.

Dixon
Yeah, this is better than coda. I think coda is.

Dixon
It's like it's probably made for people who are not deaf to like the movie. Like the lead character is not deaf, but she is the child of deaf parents. And so, you know, it's it's. Yes, it's kind of bring you into the community and showing you what these what deaf people go through, but it's really not like it's about this.

Dixon
Girl and her her desire to to, you know, be a singer and her parents don't support that because they can't hear her sing.

Dixon
And it's like, you know, it is Oscar Baity paint by numbers kind of ****, but it's really well executed. Oscar, Betty paint by number shift where it was like at the end of the movie I was like, OK, I know like I could predict exactly everything that was going to happen in the next scene. But by the end of it, I was smiling and I was like, God dammit movie, you got me.

Dixon
Like you know, I normally like don't try to support like movies like that, that are just kind.

Dixon
Trying to to just be as yeah, just kind of manipulative and and not really tell you a real story. It's more just like this is a formula that works. Let's do that. But it does that formula really well. Sentimental, I think, is A is a much better movie and and from the perspective of the person who's actually going deaf, I think makes you have a lot more.

John
Tug on your heartstrings.

Dixon
Empathy for people struggling with that then a movie like Coda does.

John
Yeah. I want to see. Yeah, everybody out there, any directors who are listening to this, I want to see a movie about deaf people. That's not the code of storyline. I want to see something unconventional or completely foreign to the palette that has to do with the deaf community. It would be fantastic. Like, I want more of those movies. I am absolutely looking for things that you don't have to have, like, maximum Foley or any of that.

John
For it just like, let me experience this community like Ryan and I kind of lamented earlier, it's not really many ways for us to engage with that in in like.

Ryan
Right.

John
Day-to-day activity and in some of the arts and media that we've seen. So yeah, but yeah, Dixon, that was a an endorsement for the sound of metal. Sorry to take away from recommending.

Dixon
Yes, I recommend sound of metal. It's a very good movie. You should watch it. It's on Amazon Prime, yeah.

Ryan
I haven't watched coda, but I I kind of feel like there's space for even more than those two, right, that this is a significant portion of. You know, there's so many people out there dealing with different levels of hearing impairment or deafness, that there should be those opportunities. We didn't talk in depth about Lauren.

Dixon
Oh yeah.

Ryan
Gridlock. Who plays the?

Ryan
Teacher at the Deaf school. Mm-hmm. Who is amazing and I feel bad that she was in Eternals and that probably could have.

Ryan
Been a big break.
Dixon
Ohh yeah.

Ryan
For her, if there weren't 15 other people in that movie, and whatever other nonsense that that was, but I I hope that she.

Ryan
Because in this she's a smart part as well.

Ryan
And she was a Walking Dead. She had stuff in there, but I'm like.

Ryan
She needs another big a big thing to come out, cause I think she's really awesome and I a a good representation of, you know, being an actor like isn't it isn't an impairment for being an.

Dixon
Actor either. Yeah, she's great.

John
Yeah, I want more things like like def sploitation. Ryan, I want more.

John
Like action heroes?

Ryan
I'm sure there.
John
That are deaf. I am so down, Mr. No legs. There's.

Ryan
Is in many ways.

Ryan
Probably a Mr. no ears out there.

Dixon
I mean, we have a daredevil, right? We got, like, an up blind action hero. We should have a death action hero. Yeah.

John
Ohh God yeah. Why can't we get somebody?

Dixon
Once we have an action hero who's lost his sense of.

John
Least we had we.

Dixon
Alright, there we go.

John
Had a musician who lost the sense of.

Dixon
Smell the walk hard.

John
This is all ******* cut cut.

Dixon
Good. close this out, right?

Ryan
Yes, alright, that was 33. Absolute recommends. Stop laughing.

Ryan
Not talking serious. God takes it.

John
I think that was all valid criticisms. OK, sure.

Dixon
Yeah, it's all staying in. *** **** it. God.

John
Yeah, you make me commit to it.

Ryan
Alright, 3/3.

Ryan
Recommends. 3 absolutely recommends it sounded like for sound of metal and that brings us to a close. I have been your host Ryan King and with.

John
John Garcia.

John
I don't have anything.

Dixon
Wow.

John
OK, I did OK. Look, house monkey. There you go. I did the signs.

Ryan
Yes, house monkey, there's no context.

Ryan
Alright and and.

John
I've been learning ASL. That's all I've gotten.

Dixon
Michael Dixon, sorry about this guys.

John
This is the sign for Dixon.

Dixon
Use your imagination listener?

John
Guess what it is.

John
Ohh ****, I actually do know what the sign should be, it's this! It's bull****.

John
This is the ******** sign.

Dixon
Ohh yeah. ha ha.